Detail from “Red States, Inc.” by Bob Hieronimus, 2012.
Dr. Zohara Hieronimus, D.H.L.
On January 15, 2017 on 21st Century Radio®, host Zohara Hieronimus interviewed astrologer Joyce Levine to help us better understand the results of the surprising 2016 presidential election, and what we might expect from a Donald Trump presidency. Joyce Levine is a full-time professional consulting astrologer with over 30 years experience. "Astrology is based upon the movement of the planets as they relate to people," says Levine. "Astrology's application is akin to psychology and economics. Astrology is like psychology in that it identifies personality characteristics and behavioral traits. It is like economics in that it makes forecasts for future conditions in an ever-changing world where no set of circumstances is ever repeated in quite the same way." In addition to reviewing the upcoming annual conference for the National Council of Geocosmic Research, Zohara Hieronimus was interested in the larger astrological cycles in the world and how the various people in the news fit into them.
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DR. ZOHARA HIERONIMUS: This election surprised everybody. Okay, I'll just talk about myself. It really threw me for a loop, I was completely caught off-guard. I looked at the aspects. I even thought to myself, "Well, that doesn't look like a real happy time for women," the day after the election and then it sorted itself out two days later. When you looked at the nation's chart and Donald Trump's chart and Hillary Clinton's chart, what did it look like?
JOYCE LEVINE: Well, let me just say there are a number of things to look at in addition to those charts. But can I start with the bigger picture and then bring in their charts?
HIERONIMUS: Please, absolutely, yes.
LEVINE: Trump was actually in an extremely favorable time up until the election. Not so favorable now. But one of the things that's been going on is cycles don't happen in a vacuum. There are the larger cycles that go on in the world and then there's how different people or different countries fit in them. But there's also, different themes. And the theme of the Arab Spring is not over.
LEVINE: Uranus and Pluto are planets that bring about dramatic change. Pluto has an erratic orbit and it's in a sign anywhere from 12 to 20-something years. It went into Capricorn in 2008 and it will be there until 2024. The last time Pluto was in Capricorn was the time frame leading up to the Revolutionary War and during the War. So, it has a very long term cycle.
Uranus went into Aries in 2010 and it will be there through 2018.
These two planets, bring about dramatic changes. They were conjoined in the 1960s, they were in tension aspect in the 1930s. From the 1930s, it went to the 1960s, to now the last few years. They kind of separated now, but the results of that combination are not over. And that is upheaval. I think that people may have looked at what was going on in the Mid-East and said, "All those terrible dictators deserve all this." Which is not to say that's not true. However, those same planetary conditions were also going to affect the United States' chart.
LEVINE: So, in this time frame it would have been impossible for things to stay the status quo. And I think that had a lot to do with Trump winning. In addition to the fact that his planetary cycles, again up until the election, were extremely favorable. And if you can see what's going on now, I think his popularity has dropped dramatically in the last few weeks.
HIERONIMUS: Oh, I don't think he'll make it through a year. I thoroughly expect the man to get impeached.
LEVINE: I don't think he's going to finish this term.
HIERONIMUS: Well, I don't either. I think if ever there was a U.S. citizen in that post ripe for impeachment, before he even starts. He's just so dangerous a person because he has no self-management.
LEVINE: There's an eclipse cycle that occurs every 18 years and the last time we were in this eclipse cycle was when the Republicans tried to impeach Clinton.
HIERONIMUS: That's interesting. Well, that's what I say and I think it's a really elegant thing. But what about his chart though, it's this sort of harmony with this Uranus, this sudden attack, you know the way in which he uses the media to wage war against individuals. It doesn't matter who you are, whether you are a senator or an actress or a handicapped person, it doesn't matter.
LEVINE: Well, let me just state upfront for your listeners, that I'm from Cambridge and I will try not to be prejudiced. [Laughs]
LEVINE: But I think that you know Cambridge, Massachusetts and you know what reputation we have. [Laughs]
LEVINE: So, certain people gain more attention than others, whether it's favorable or unfavorable. And certain people are listened to more than others. And he has that type of chart. Now, whether that's stable is a different question.
HIERONIMUS: Is that from a Gemini perspective or what is it?
LEVINE: No, at the time of day he was born puts his Sun, which is the sense of identity in the career public sector chart.
HIERONIMUS: In like the tenth house or something?
LEVINE: Okay, yes. I was trying to avoid using astrology terms but yes.
HIERONIMUS: Well, that's all right. Folks, there's a wheel, and your chart when you are born is made up of twelve different segments, and each of those segments are called houses. And each of those houses govern over different parts of your life and the tenth house is like your career, it's almost like if you had a high noon at the top, at the mid-heaven top of your charts, one little orbit over to the left and that's your career. So, I'm sorry.
LEVINE: You're pretty good.
Detail from “Red States, Inc.” by Bob Hieronimus, 2012.
HIERONIMUS: I used to do baby charts actually when I was much younger and people took it so seriously that I stopped doing it because I would say, "Look, they're tendencies, you know your child is obviously gifted and could be a great musician." And this child can't even eat by itself yet, and they want to know if they should start preparing lessons. [Laughs]
LEVINE: Yeah, but actually I think that could be helpful. I do charts for newborns also and it helps the parents understand the children. And children in the crib signal the parents as much as the parents go to the crib to pick up the child.
HIERONIMUS: Well, that's definitely true. So, back to the Trump chart and that he has his sun in the tenth house.
LEVINE: He has the Sun, Uranus north node conjunction which means they're all in the same place.
HIERONIMUS: That's interesting. That's why he has such a terrible temper and such a mouth, he just spits off at the hip.
LEVINE: It also puts him erratically in the public light. His Sun, Uranus, in the node opposes the moon in Sagittarius.
HIERONIMUS: That's interesting.
LEVINE: So, in a sense, no matter what he would do, he would, "have a big mouth." Or let's put it this way. The tendency would be to think and speak at the same time.
In addition to that, he has the very end of Leo rising. And then Mars, which is the planet of drive and energy, but also the planet of anger, temper, and war. It is very close to his ascendant. It's how he projects himself.
LEVINE: So, he would have a combative personality. And the more disturbing thing for me about this is that if you relocate his chart to Washington, D.C. that Mars moves to be exactly conjunct the ascendant. And I'm afraid for his term he will be very warlike.
Whether that is war on other countries or whether that is war against what he might call his perceived enemies.
HIERONIMUS: Or against the Congress or against anybody who doesn't agree with him.
LEVINE: Against anybody.
HIERONIMUS: These are the sort of the tendencies of despots and dictators and fascists and people who really have no capacity to feel the impact of what they do because they're so wrapped up in themselves that they only see it as it affects them. That's what a narcissist is psychologically anyway.
LEVINE: Well, he also has Mercury. His chart ties in with the U.S. chart though.
HIERONIMUS: And how does that happen?
LEVINE: When you compare two charts, such as his and the U.S., and let me say this, in what could be a disturbing way. The United States has a Mars-Neptune square, part of that which can be called confused action. Whenever that Mars-Neptune square has been triggered off in the past there's either been downturns in the stock market or something happens in a warlike fashion.
HIERONIMUS: It's like the fog of war.
LEVINE: Yeah. His chart triggers that planetary combination. And the Mars in his inauguration chart also triggers it. So, who knows what he'll do.
HIERONIMUS: Yes, and who knows how the world's going to respond outside our borders. You know, it's not just about all of us going, "This is unbelievable! Is this really happening? Has the shadow really stepped into the office of President?"
LEVINE: The interesting thing is that right now he seems to be very cozy with Russia. But when you project the President's chart onto a map, there's certain areas in the world where certain planets become highlighted.
And his Mars, which can be a war indicator, goes through the Balkans.
LEVINE: So, I wonder how cozy he'll end up staying with Russia over a period of time. Assuming that he stays in office long enough for this to happen. Because I would be surprised, and you never know for certain, but I say I would be surprised if he finished his term.
HIERONIMUS: Well, right exactly. I don't think anybody on either side of the aisle thinks this man is going to make it through a year, let alone a term. I think everybody is a little shocked about really what do you do in a situation like this where the leader of your nation is at best a petulant 14 year old in behavior. I'm not saying he's not intelligent, I'm not saying he hasn't built a big business. But as our Commander in Chief and as our President it's frightening for our people and others in the world. He has the personality make up of a dictator [whether in a home, business or nation.]
But I think the astrology is interesting because it takes the personal opinion quite out of it and that's why I wanted you to talk a little bit about it. I mean you and I could have an astrological discussion, which would be enlightening for me, but I don't think the audience would necessarily benefit by it the most.
Looking at some of these bigger trends which you started to mention with Uranus in Aries and Pluto in Capricorn, and that these things have tremendous impact on all of us and it will go on until 2024. So, that we can better appreciate and be a little more resilient to how turbulent this is, sudden changes may happen and an idea can catch fire quickly.
LEVINE: Pluto transits, which means it "goes through" for people not familiar with the term. It brings out the dark side of that sign the entire time it is there. And Capricorn rules big business, money, government, authority, status quo. And typically what happens is that during the time frame of Pluto's transits through whatever sign it's in, the dark side of whatever the sign represents manifests.
By contrast, Neptune is the planet of idealism, of spirituality, of creativity. And Neptune is in Pisces right now. Typically, when Neptune goes through a sign the issues or the things that sign represents become idealized. For instance, when Neptune was in Capricorn in the 1990s being CEO was ideal, you were supposed to work 80 hours a week or you were lazy, and business was idealized. Now, Pluto is in Capricorn and basically big business is vilified.
Right now Neptune is in Pisces, and this is part of my hope in some of this because Pisces stands for compassion, idealism, spirituality on the positive side. On the negative side is also illusion. But if we look at some of the positive things that are going on at this time, you see all these young CEOs or these billionaires giving away money and now it's become a status quo to give away your money. And so, that's the other side of what's going on at this point, increased philanthropy. I do believe that over this period of time we're going to see an increased interest in spirituality and spiritual pursuits. It's not going to do away with the other, with Pluto in Capricorn or Uranus or the upheaval. But think of it like a counter trend.
HIERONIMUS: And also, you know how the darker it is the brighter the light, just because that's physics. At least, I feel that it will invigorate people's humanity because when you feel that it's really being challenged, sometimes that's when the best of everybody comes out. So, I think the nation's very resilient, it's just an extraordinary phenomena to watch and when you look at it from an astrological point of view you go, "Ah, that's why." At least from my vantage point you appreciate the fate of the nation and the world.
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“Monsanto Frankenfood Terminator Genes Persecutes Farmers” by Bob Hieronimus, 2003.
HIERONIMUS: So, Joyce, you were talking to us about these major trends that affect all of the world and one of the large ones is Uranus in Aries and Pluto in Capricorn. And these are trends that will go on until 2024 or so. You talked about how we see change and upheaval in the status quo and in governments and in businesses and in even our sense of time, really. How does that show up in other ways?
LEVINE: In terms of what is going on in the rest of the world, I think that it's part of what started with in the Arab Spring. Uranus in Aries is more of the need for freedom and independence and individuality, that's the positive side of it. The negative side is that it can be chaos and you could say that revolution could be positive or negative depending on what the revolution is.
These planets in the 1840s, there were uprisings in Europe with the same kind of cycles and so there's a history of these types of cycles repeating themselves.
HIERONIMUS: Talk to us a bit about when these big things are happening, how we can actually use them to grow?
LEVINE: Let me say this, it doesn't affect everybody the same way. So, in an individual's chart, Uranus is a need on an individual level to be true to yourself, which is I say its positive side. So, if you're at a point in your life where you're doing what your spirit calls for or what your soul wants, and there's nothing you want to break free from, you're not going to have a lot of problem with Uranus. However, if you have challenging aspects from Uranus and you have a job that you hate, you're in a marriage that you're not happy in, but you don't have the courage to leave, or any of those circumstances that you feel bound by. Either you will break free or something will happen and you will be made free.
So, I've seen people with Uranus transit who really wanted to be out of their marriage and their spouse decides they want a divorce. Or somebody hates their job and they just can't tolerate it anymore and instead of having the courage to make the change, something happens and they get fired. It's almost like you have to work with the energy of the planets and if you look at whatever is going on, depending on what planet it is that's affecting your chart. You have to look at what is it that I need to do at this point in my life. What is this planet telling me?
And Uranus can be unexpected conditions. Now, unexpected conditions can be something great happening to you or it can be losing your job when you aren't planning on it. So, part of it depends on where you are in your life. And I think that the other thing is that depending on where you are in your life, there's a different way of working with the cycles. So, what might be a good thing to do at 30 might not be a smart thing to do at 60.
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HIERONIMUS: Are there things where you look at the chart out ahead and are there time periods where you see things really being at risk and people should know that?
LEVINE: I think this September, this Fall of 2017 time frame. There was a financial guru in the 1930s named W.D.Gann and he was selling his stock market courses for people to learn how to make money in the stock market, I think it was for $3,000 or $5,000 or something like that during the depression. And the number 7, the "7" years tend to be challenging years for the stock market. There are certain planetary conditions that tend to be challenging. So, I don't think we're going to have a 2008 [financial recession] this year, but I do think that we have to be ready for a downturn around September. And I should say that Trump's chart, whether this is related or not, is very challenged in the month of August.
HIERONIMUS: That's near his ascendant, that Leo ascendant also.
LEVINE: There's an eclipse that occurs that conjoins his ascendant and in addition to that Saturn, which we haven't talked about yet is the planet of discipline and duty and responsibility, do everything you should or you're in trouble. Saturn has started to trigger his chart after the election. And we can see in that now that his popularity has decreased and people are now taking seriously things that were problematic before but nobody paid attention to. Like his businesses, or...
HIERONIMUS: The everything, all of it is now on the table, whereas before everybody thought he was kidding.
LEVINE: Nobody cared before. So, that's going on now. But in July, August, September, October, all of these things, Saturn is going to station, which means that it comes to a standstill and stops. Sitting on his moon, opposite his sun.
HIERONIMUS: Saturn on a moon, that would be like a mallet hitting your emotions?
LEVINE: Yes, but one of the things about when a person becomes President is it is like their chart takes on the connotation of a country chart. And in a country chart, the Moon is the public. So, with the opposition to his sun and the conjunction to his Moon, it's sort of like it's time to pay the piper. Saturn is a planet of you get what you earn one way or the other. Under Saturn cycles you could have a very favorable time but not without hard work or responsibility. But if you haven't been doing what you should that's when the problems show up. And so, July, August, September, October, are particularly challenging for him.
HIERONIMUS: Interesting. So, you all heard it here first. But it really is that if the whole world used astrology there would be things that wouldn't be such a surprise. We would understand better times and God forbid we have to wage war, when to do it so there is least harm and optimal success. But we don't and I'm incredulous that still to this day and this time in history that we're not using astrology to our advantage for evolutionary growth. I'd like to look at it but I don't do that anymore. I mean someone like you would, you have skills to look down the road and look at environmental changes. What are critical times and what years can we turn things around. What can we all be working on now?
LEVINE: Well, the other thing that's going on is that the Pluto transits have also been triggering the United States chart. And Pluto has been making a tension aspect toward the United States' Saturn and Saturn is structure.
HIERONIMUS: Where is our Saturn?
LEVINE: In Libra.
HIERONIMUS: What a nice place to have Saturn, it's like a fair judge.
LEVINE: And you can look at this time frame as like a breakdown of the structure of this country. And this has been going on since the election. So, it didn't just happen today.
HIERONIMUS: Right, and how long does this last?
LEVINE: Pluto actually has been triggering the United States chart for a number of years. It started with Venus and Jupiter, basically it started with all the recession stuff. And it's at the tail end now of triggering Saturn. Again, think of it like something happens but the damage is still there. So, we're still in the damage phase, to say the least. It's moving away now but we're not done with it.
HIERONIMUS: And where is the United States' Venus?
LEVINE: The United States actually has a wealthy chart. We have Venus and Jupiter which are considered the "good" planets. And Venus and Jupiter when they're together are considered the best luck that you could have. The United States has a Venus-Jupiter-Sun conjunction, kind of wide but Venus and Jupiter are close in Cancer, which is our sort of mothering of the world.
HIERONIMUS: A home for all. How beautiful.
LEVINE: And the Moon in Aquarius which to me that image is like the Statue of Liberty, the Aquarius being open to all. To all the differences, at least we have been.
HIERONIMUS: Exactly. Well, it's still our destiny and sometimes it takes time to grow up. Unfortunately, it also takes a lot of challenge to find what's important and what you're not willing to let go of.
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HIERONIMUS: When you use astrology both for an individual who's making choices in their life, whether it's marriage or relocating or starting a business or leaving a business, whatever it is, you not only look at a person's natal chart but their progressed chart and how it's changed into this time period. So, when you look at a candidate like what you shared a little bit with us on President-Elect Trump and the United States, you could see ahead that he's going to have quite some trouble on his hands in July, August, September, etc.
LEVINE: I mean he has trouble now, his Saturn is actually opposing his sun this month and it was exact yesterday. And you can see again, that right after the election these cycles started. I shouldn't say this, but unfortunately they didn't start before the election.
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Transcription by Joseph Ford.